Their past catches up with them, as the Crypt Saints need to conquer their daemons once again...
We're battling at Kasfunatu Towers tonight. I, Stylus, will be playing remotely, and Kas gave me full choice from his collection. He's only got himself to blame that I took it...
Crypt Saints
It's pretty much the same list as against Pootle, but scaled back by 250 points (doctor, techmarine, priestly rank and a couple of marines removed)
- HQ - Chaplain on Bike, Warlord: Imperium's Sword, Relic: Adamantine Mantle, Litany: Canticle of Hate
- HQ - Phobos Lieutenant. Warlord: Storm of Fire, Relic: Artificier Armour
- Troops - 5 Assault Intercessors, Sergeant with Power Fist
- Troops - 5 Infiltrators, Infiltrator Comms Array
- Troops - 5 Intercessors, Bolt Rifles
- Elites - Redemptor Dreadnought, Macro Plasma Incinerator, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
- Fast Attack - 3 Outriders
- Fast Attack - 3 Suppressors
- Heavy Support - 3 Eradicators, Heavy Melta Rifles, Multi-Melta
- Dedicated Transport - Impulsor, Storm Bolters, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Orbital Comms Array
1,250 Points, Power Level 81, 10 CP (12 - 1 for extra warlord trait -1 for extra relic)
The Three Daemigos (Chaos Daemons)
Let me stop you right there... to the casual viewer, taking three Greater Daemons in a 1250pt list is rough, and upgrading them all to Exalted Greater Daemons is downright obnoxious. My excuse is: I've never played with any of these before, and I was keen to audition my next big beastie. As for upgrading them all ... well, that just seemed fun, and the Daemon army is notoriously poor on things to spend CP on.
In fact, it's not really a competitive list (that would be your Nurgle blob, which is a bit insipid for a friendly game), and having a bare minimum of units is going to leave me exposed in the objective-grabbing game. I'll just have to do maximum damage before the army collapses and instability drags them all back into the warp. Should be fun.
- Exalted Keeper of Secrets (HQ) (Warlord)
Hysterical Frenzy, Ritual knife, Smite, Snapping claws, Witstealer sword
Trait: Celerity of Slaanesh
Exalted: Lightning Flayer, Fear-Seeker
Powers: Hysterical Frenzy, Delightful Agonies - Exalted Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage (HQ)
Great axe of Khorne
Relic: Armour of Scorn
Exalted: Slaughterborn, Rage Unchained - Exalted Great Unclean One (HQ)
Bilesword, Plague flail, Nurglings
Exalted: Bloated with Corruption, Living Plagues
Powers: Miasma of Pestilence, Shrivelling Pox - 24 x Plaguebearers (Troop)
Plagueswords, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos - 3 x Nurglings (Troop)
Diseased teeth and claws - 12 x Bloodletters (Troop)
Hellblades, Instrument of Chaos - 11 x Daemonettes (Troop)
Piercing claws, Instrument of Chaos
Points: 1,250 | Level: 73 | Battle-forged + Battalion - Warp Strike (2) - Exalted (3): 7 CPs
Mission and Deployment
We're playing Crossfire, which is the one with an objective in each corner, and quarter-table deployment zones (with a 9" gap in the centre).
The Crypt Saints secondary objectives were:
- Crossfire - the mission objective: 5VP for holding two diagonal objectives and having a unit in the centre
- Thin Their Ranks - 1VP for every 10 models destroyed (Greater Daemons count as 10)
- Engage on all Fronts - 3VP for ending the turn in three quarters, 4VP for four quarters
The Chaos Daemons' secondary objectives were:
- Assassinate - 3VP for each character I kill
- While We Stand, We Fight - 5VP for every Greater Daemon I keep alive
- Engage on all Fronts - 3VP for ending the turn in three quarters, 4VP for four quarters
I set up my Greater Daemons as close to the centre as possible, angling for that first-turn charge. The Keeper of Secrets in the top of the quadrant, the Bloodthirster in the centre, and the Great Unclean One, backed up by the mass of Plaguebearers, at the bottom.
The Nurglings hid away in the ruin, keeping on the objective, and I pay 2CP to put the Daemonettes and Bloodletters into the warp.
I drop the infiltrators in a safe corner, the intecessors and bikes on the eastern flank, the eradicators in the building in center, and the bikes/dread/tank nearby. Strong centre, marines on each flank, with bikes to shoot forward and harrass.
With a setup like this, getting the first turn is going to be crucial. Just to ramp up the tensions, Kasfunatu and I roll the same result for the first three rolls, before he finally beats me and takes first turn. Curses!
Turn 1 - Crypt Saints
That's quite an imposing, and somewhat close, attacking force. It gives me pause; and my assault forces are going to hold back.
I opt to leave intercessors on NorthEast objective, and trot the infiltrators to grab the NorthWest.
Outriders screech forward to grab SouthEast putting the rubble between them and the green tide, and with the hope that they can clear some plaguebearers with bolterfire (they fail miserable, and slaughter one).
I opt to leave intercessors on NorthEast objective, and trot the infiltrators to grab the NorthWest.
Outriders screech forward to grab SouthEast putting the rubble between them and the green tide, and with the hope that they can clear some plaguebearers with bolterfire (they fail miserable, and slaughter one).
The Impulsor full of assaultcessors and the chaplain hide behind the building (brave as they may be, they wanted some odd thinning completed first!)
With that, the three eradicators and dreadnought point at the Keeper of Secrets; once the smoke clears, they is only a burning slightly purple, slightly clawed, orgy of a mess behind. One greater daemon down.
Objective secured: Engage on all Fronts (3)
Crypt Saints 3 : 0 Chaos Daemons
Turn 1 - Chaos Daemons
Oh dear. I know the greater daemons would attract fire, but I did hope that I might get at least one turn from them. Kasfunatu also picked the right target - the Keeper of Secrets was the only one fast enough to reach those accursed Eradicators. The Bloodthirster falls just short, even for the longest charge.
Undaunted, I fly the Bloodthirster forward to destroy the only thing he can reach - so the Impulsor is out of luck. A couple of swift whacks with his great axe and I inflict a mighty 24 wounds (enough to fell a Knight!) (gulp) on the transport. There's not enough of it left to explode, and all the crew manage to disembark safely (probably because there's now plenty of exit holes).
Wanting to get my money's worth before he gets wiped by melta fire, I consolidate the Bloodthirster into the Chaplain, taking four wounds in the process, then pay 3CP to have him fight again. (oh dear)
If I were smart, I would have used his Sweeping Blow and cut the Chaplain to ribbons, but the damage output of the Mighty Strike seduced me, and it should have still have been enough to kill the Chaplain - except Kas rolled four 6s for his five invulnerable saves, then shrugged off three of the five wounds I did inflict. Two wounds! (This was my first battle of using new dice-cam overlay... I was glad it was in place for these unlikely rolls)
In the other table quarter, I leave the Nurglings hidden at the back, securing my home objective, while the Great Unclean One and Plaguebearers advance forward towards the Outriders and then charge them.
... and that was entirely my mistake. I've no idea why I thought they could advance and charge. My best guess is that, Nurgle units are so slow, I'd forgotten they'd even advanced.
Luckily, my blatant cheating had little impact when the Great Unclean One whiffed his attacks and Kasfunatu rode his saves, so only one bike fell (and one was left clutching one wound). Those daemon units are now further along than they ought to be, but they're not on the objective, so no real harm done.
And that ends my go - I got my two surviving Greater Daemons into melee, and have only got a dead Impulsor and one Outrider to show for it. At least I get Engage on all Fronts for being scattered everywhere.
Objective secured: Engage on all Fronts (3)
Crypt Saints 3 : 3 Chaos Daemons
Turn 2 - Crypt Saints
Right... well, I don't fancy my luck with another swing from that big axe; and frankly the assault intercessors are going to wimp out too. So the two characters and the chainsword wielding primaris all head off in the other direction in search of something worthy to fight... look, over there: nurglings!
The bikes back off from their objective and table quarter and keep the intecessors company behind the pile of rubble.
Intecessors wave their guns ineffectually, and the dreadnought splits fire: big gun at the bloodthirster, everything else in range at the plaguebearers... that's one more plaguebearer down. (resilient scum)
Main shooting if effective: with the bloodthirster out of combat, the eradicator and redemptor unload. This time the mess is red and horny. That's two.
In all the excitement, I remember my suppressors are still suppressed on the sidelines. They will have to wait until next turn.
Without fear of reprisal, I opt for to attempt (and fail to make) the long bomb charge on the nurglings (even CP it too). I had failed to prayer properly this turn, if that had been good then either roll would have made it. Next turn.
Objective secured: Primaries (15), Crossfire (5), Engage on all Fronts (3)
Crypt Saints 26 : 3 Chaos Daemons
Turn 2 - Chaos Daemons
I made it to the second turn! Time to bring in the reinforcements (wish I'd stashed away a greater daemon in the warp now).
The Nurglings stay put and hope no-one notices them (oh, I've noticed... just failing to do anything about them), the Great Unclean One parks himself on the objective, while nudging himself into flail range of the Intercessors. The Plaguebearers move up to the Crypt Saints' home objective.
I drop both Daemonettes and Bloodletters in the Astartes home quarter. It's putting all my units in one sector, but dropping into the Infiltrators is a non-starter with their comms array, and reinforcing the Nurglings is just throwing them away. And I want to guarantee at least one unit makes that 9" charge.
In the Psychic Phase, the Great Unclean One puts Miasma of Pestilence on himself and Shrivelling Pox on the Outriders. oh
And then I make all my charges - the Bloodletters wipe out the last two Outriders, which leave the Daemonettes nothing to do. The Plaguebearers slap around the Intercessors, taking down one of them, but swarming over the objective.
In the Morale Phase, the Plaguebearers recover all their lost models as reality blinks - this is the one daemon unit who's enjoying itself.
I seem to have relocated to the other side of the table, and I'm in a decent place on the objectives, if I can hang onto them.
Objective secured: Primaries (5), Engage on all Fronts (3)
Crypt Saints 26 : 11 Chaos Daemons
Turn 3 - Crypt Saints
We know the plan by this point, most of the army flaps ineffectually, the melee troops run away from anything more powerful than a nurgling, and the dread+eradicators take down the big daemons.
As the Intercessors drop back from the Plaguebearers, I get to employ the little-used stratagem Cut Them Down and inflict two mortals wounds on the squad - best they'll manage all game!
I do send the Lt to grab the SW objective, the chaplain heads forward to dispatch the nurglings; and after some debate I even drop the suppressors here to make sure they are dead. Besides, I can take out the daemon this turn, then with these nurglings gone too, swing back to the NE corner to mop up.
Nurgle apparently does not approve of this plan.
Not only do the nurglings survive suppressor shots, chaplain shots but the chaplain fails to pray or charge.
The eradicators have to break cover to bring the big Nurgle beastie into range, and not all make it. Still 6 shots should be enough... I scratch 4 wounds off it. The redemptor again splits fire with plasma cannon mostly being absorbed by the gluttonous daemon, and the small arms wiping a good chunk of daemonettes.
Objective secured: Primaries (5), Engage on all Fronts (3)
Crypt Saints 34 : 11 Chaos Daemons
Turn 3 - Chaos Daemons
I maximise my objectives - that was unexpected! Without enough units to babysit objectives, the Great Unclean One and Plaguebearers are forced to sit tight on theirs.
I do, however, abandon my home objective with the Nurglings - there's no point in staying there to get charged when I could bother the Suppressors. Sure enough, they charge into the marines and proceed to slap each other ineffectually. Looks like I am really going to have my warlord charge one nurgling!
More deadly is the melee on the other side of the table. The Bloodletters and what remains of the Daemonettes run over to face the Redemptor. The Daemonettes are wiped out in Overwatch, leaving the Bloodletters to chuckle to themselves and charge in afterwards.
Sadly their blades aren't quite up to bringing down the dreadnought (the double-damage hits, for example, are wasted) and the brute crushes a couple of daemons in reply.
Finally, in the Crypt Saints' quarter, the Great Unclean One Smites away two more Intercessors, and the Plaguebearers drag down another one. This is enough to cause the sergeant to run away - yipee!
That was a decent turn for me, and I've managed to claw back some points. Sadly, I wasn't able to tie up the Eradicators, and I think that will cost me.
Objective secured: Primaries (15), Engage on all Fronts (3)
Crypt Saints 34 : 29 Chaos Daemons
Turn 4 - Crypt Saints
I am now quite out of position. My melee forces are bothering a single nurgling. But the redemptor is holding up the red wave of blades leaving eradicators to shoot. The assaultcessors, for want of a better plan, head back to the centre of the battlefield.
The infiltrators break out the playing cards. They are having a very dull game, but know that holding the objective is sensible; and so do nothing.
The suppressors jump from combat ready to start shooting the Unclean One in my final turn.
Eradicators plod forward; and continue relentless meltabombardment of the Nurgle blob. It's wounded, but still very much alive.
The chaplain charges, but fails to kill the nurgling(!) and the between fist and gun: the redemptor squashes the last of the bloodletters.
Objective secured: Primaries (5), Engage on all Fronts (3)
Crypt Saints 42 : 29 Chaos Daemons
Turn 4 - Chaos Daemons
Very little to be done this turn, as I'm essentially clinging onto this with one rotting talon. The Great Unclean One edges as far away as possible (while still being on the objective) and casts Miasma of Pestilence back on himself. (I toy with the idea of getting more wounds with the Revolting Regeneration stratagem, but decide that Warp Surge is a better use for my last two CP when I get shot in the last turn).
The Plaguebearers all run and hide in the building - there's probably too many of them to whittle down by now, but at least they've got me an objective.
The Nurglings are inexplicably still alive, and decide that, having nibbled a wound off the Chaplain, they had better be elsewhere, and run for the edge of the board, securing me Engage on all Fronts once again.
Objective secured: Primaries (10), Engage on all Fronts (3)
Crypt Saints 42 : 42 Chaos Daemons
Turn 5 - Crypt Saints
The chaplain runs over the nurgling.
The lieutenant, assaultcessors, and infiltrators all twiddle thumbs keeping their objectives safe; and all gun focusses on the only remaining visible target.
It takes all the fire power I have, but finally the glob is smoldering green goo.
Objective secured: Primaries (10), Engage on all Fronts (3)
Crypt Saints 55 : 42 Chaos Daemons
Turn 5 - Chaos Daemons
My poor Great Unclean One! So very close to withstanding all that firepower - at least it took more turns to bring him down than his daemonic brethren.
As a last huzzah, I charge the Plaguebearers into the Redemptor, swinging their plagueswords for all their worth before the warp summons them back.
Objective secured: Primaries (5)
Objective secured (Crypt Saints): Thin Their Ranks (6)
Objective secured (Crypt Saints): Thin Their Ranks (6)
Crypt Saints 61 : 47 Chaos Daemons
Locker Room
What a drubbing! The score flattered me a lot, since my army list and deployment was basically make-or-break in the first turn. Not getting the first turn hurt me, although my Keeper of Secrets was only just destroyed - just one pass on its 4++ invuln save could have give me one last use of it.
This was a game which was heavily decided on that first turn roll.
Given that most of casualties were inflicted by the Eradicators and Redemptor, I had basically brought a whole load of scissors to a rock fight. As some consolation, they did attract all the firepower, which gave my weaker units a bit of breathing space.
Whilst my other units had their use, they were always in the wrong position and not playing to strength. With the nurglings out of sight, and two units off the board, there were four units to target on turn one and three of them were exalted daemons. It did scare a lot of my army; and neuter them. Also the plaguebearer mob was very resilient. I'd have needed a lot more concentrated fire to take out; and did not have the forces or position to handle. They kept coming back whenever they were killed (mind you, that did add a few extra thin-their-rank points!)
But it was great fun trying out the big guys! They're all on my wish-list at some point. If I were to run daemons as a slightly more sensible list (and why would I?), there's definitely some builds to be made around a single greater daemon and supporting units.
Good fun seeing them all played. The last time all three saw the battlefield at the same time was the large 5000pt a side from two years ago. The daemons might be out in force again in the coming days. That said, Kraken, if you are reading this for spoilers: I only promise I won't take three exalted daemons... ;)
The more I think about this game, coupled with others over the last year, and compounded by reports/articles/videos on youtube or similar: I do keep wondering about first turn advantage.
ReplyDeleteIt might only be a small tweak needed. 8th had the in-cover when not strategem (which was never really desirable given the cost, and only offered benefit if not in cover; but at least was an attempt).
It occurred that a potential viable balance would be that deepstrike/reserves could come in earlier for second player. Instead of no reserves in battle round 1, it would only be in first turn (ie impacting first player only).
The first player gets the advantage of first turn, the second player gets the advantage of reinforcing first.
What are your thoughts?
There may be something to it, but for this particular game, the armies and deployment made it all about the first turn. A more conventional army and conservative approach would have been different.
DeleteTrue - although it appears anecdotally to be a common theme based on games I have seen.
DeleteThen looking at the table on:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/01/28/metawatch-is-warhammer-40000s-first-turn-advantage-a-thing-of-the-past/
it is more than just this game.
Admittedly that article title is about it being a thing of the past; and predate the final turn primary objective change; so maybe
it will be less. (doesn't feel like that has changed anything on the tiny sample I have seen). But will see how pans out.
Ironically, I am playing a Slaanesh list on Saturday... the only army which seems to buck the trend on that table.
Anecdotally, I've played 12 games of 9th Ed.
Delete1st turn: 5 wins
2nd turn: 3 wins, 4 losses
I don't know if that tells a story, since that includes a wide range of competitive and narrative scenarios. Maybe it needs first-turn adjustments for competitive play, but at this level, I'm not minded to add homebrew fixes.
I wasn't actually suggested we adopted a houserule. Just musing for potential benefit of big wigs and influencers who, I assume, read the blog.
DeleteI've played 11 games in 9th and the person who got first turn won 6 of them, so although that 55% stat is close to what I've seen online, it's also as close to random as possible from the sample. There have been some games where I've benefitted from my opponent charging forwards to much on turn 1 and giving me something to counter-charge and going on to win, balanced by some where grabbing opportunities early on has paid dividends. Then there have been some where a cagey first turn has enabled me to spring forwards and cause a lot of damage in turn two (e.g. the Purge v Scourged game against you Stylus) vs being overly cautious and throwing away any first turn advantage (e.g. the last game against you Kas). So although adding our (still small) samples together still shows a possibly slight advantage to going first, there's so much more variability in the games themselves and the somewhat casual way we approach them that I don't think I can draw any conclusions - apart from that I must play more games!
DeleteI wouldn't mind seeing the cover strat come back, not that I ever used it. Nice to have extra tools in the box, though!
ReplyDeleteThe metawatch article was interesting, though. I don't think you'll ever totally lose a slight advantage to going first (army and list dependant, of course), as you get to use all of your models compared to player two usually losing a few shots at least. But that's the nature of I-go-U-go games, really, and having enough cover to hide behind is always the best fix.